Ross Jeffries

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S: I know what you’re thinking. A pick-up artist? Seriously, Stephan? What are you thinking? Well, pick-up artists actually have a lot of value that they can deliver, especially somebody as good as Ross Jeffries. He’s been called The Godfather of The Pick-Up Artists or PUA Community. The reason why you should care is because pick-up is actually really valuable in your business relationships, in your intimate relationship, in your relationship with pretty much anybody and everybody. You can use it to influence, to persuade, to inspire, and even for self-help. Today’s guest is Ross Jeffries, he’s helped over 100,000 men achieve success with women through coaching live events and his recorded programs, and he’s an expert, a world expert at Neuro Linguistic Programming. You’re going to really enjoy this. Ross, it’s great to have you on the show.

R: I’m ready to optimize some geeks. It’s what I do for a living, as a matter of fact.

S: I remember 2010, I was in one of your workshops and I was pretty geeky back then. I was in the process of transforming myself, having gone the year prior to my first Tony Robbins event, and then multiple Tony Robbins events in 2010. This is all brought on by my divorce. Thankfully, I had a bit of money from the sale of my business in order to fund some of the stuff including workshops on pick up and how to show up more powerfully, let’s just put it that way.

R: Which of my events were you at? What city?

S: New York City.

R: Okay, I wasn’t aware of that. That was quite some time ago.

S: Yup, yup. It was a good event.

R: I’m glad.

S: Then I got involved in Neil Strauss’s Secret Society. It was quite a journey. Before we get into all that craziness, let’s talk about what the heck is a pick up artist and why would somebody want to learn the art of seduction if they’re geeky and socially awkward and they’re having trouble getting dates like I did. I went 2 ½ years after my separation from my wife with not a single date.

R: Wow. Involuntary celibacy is what I call it. You’ve actually asked the few questions. Let’s take them the order that I choose to answer them. First of all, I don’t consider myself to be a pick up artist. That’s other people. I consider myself to be an attraction engineer. I was on an airplane. There was a young lady sitting next to me, about 26, 27 years old. Her name is Sarah. I’ll never forget this. She had this technical diagram open up, I don’t know what she was drawing but the notebook said JPL NASA. I said, “What’s that? You go there?” She said, “I have a doctorate in aerospace. I’m designing miniature satellites for NASA.” I said, “Wow! I’m an Eros Space engineer myself.” She said, “Where did you get your PhD?” I said, “No, no. Eros Space, e-r-o-s. I engineer that space between a man and a woman. Those feelings of connection, desire and really wanting to feel needs, Sarah.” Her eyes bug out and she said, “How do you do that?” That’s how I describe what I do. I’m sort of an Eros Space engineer. Pick up artist implies that that’s all the person does. Pick up is a separate activity from seduction. I don’t consider myself a pick up artist. I consider myself an Eros Space Engineer, but also an agent of personal transformation. You came to my event in New York, so you may remember what I taught is changing beliefs. I would say 50% of what I do is act as a catalyst, an agent of change for the guys who come to the event. As well as teach the skills in meeting woman. I haven’t thought of it as picking up woman, I think about it as extending opportunities to enjoy male energy. One of the new affirmations I teach my male students is that inside of every woman, something wonderful is sleeping, waiting for me to awaken it. That’s the view I teach my students to take.  I don’t know if this answers your questions, there is something that was embedded in there, that wasn’t quite a question. That’s more like a precept position.

S: Yes, you are embedding a lot of precept positions in here, in what you are saying. I think it’s important for our listeners to understand that you are a master at NLP, Neuro Linguistic Programming. Every opportunity for you to use words, you use them very intentionally, very deliberately.

R: Thank you. I’m in love with language. Madly, passionately in love with language and its power to transform people both in terms of change in themselves and influencing others. Really, very overlapping tools and ways of thinking that can accomplish both tasks. I love doing the change work with students. I was talking to a student the other day, I was giving him a little consult and he said, “When I do cold walk ups, I chicken out and I feel like I’m a coward.” I said, “Wait a minute. Cold walks up? So there’s a sheet of ice between you and them?” “No, no. That’s not what I mean.” “Oh, so the woman is encased in an iceberg?” He said, “No, no, no.” I pointed out to him, I said, “Do you see how that entire metaphor of cold automatically calls the mind imagery and opens up circuitry in your brain that’s not useful? What if you took on a different metaphor? What if your metaphor was ‘extending an opportunity for her to enjoy your male energy’? What if you didn’t think of yourself as a seducer at all but a decision service technician? You were gonna help service her decision that she really did want to sleep with you.” Then I attacked his metaphor of being a coward. I said, “So the very essence of who you are is a coward? Your kidney is a coward?” I looked at the business of his language. Because my teaching to everyone listening to this, regardless of whether you are interested in seduction or personal transformation or persuasion. My teaching to you is this: Language structures consciousness, shapes decisions and drives behavior. Both intrapersonally, the way you relate to yourself and interpersonally, the way you relate to others. You ignore the power of language to do these things at your own disadvantage, I would even say, in some cases at your own peril. That’s really what my mission is about.

S: So much of our constraints and possibilities are defined based on our beliefs, and there are no true beliefs, as I heard from Tony Robbins, and I believe it. There are only empowering beliefs and disempowering beliefs.

R: Well, hold on just a minute. Usually, when someone says the word ‘none’ or ‘always’, those are things which would cause anyone’s ears to perk up. I have a strong belief that says if you drop a 50 ton bowling ball and a 1 pound bowling ball simultaneously, at the same time, which one’s going to hit the ground first? Take into account there is no friction.

S: They will both hit at the same time.

R: Okay. That’s a strong belief that happens to be true. I don’t care what Tony says. It’s also true, if you stand in front of a speeding train that has a mass of 100 tons, that it’s accelerating at 100 miles per hour, you’re going to get hit with 10,000 foot tons of energy. It’s going to smash you. I understand what he’s talking about but he tends to take things too extreme.

S: Let’s take this general idea of beliefs either being empowering or disempowering.

R: That’s true.

S: I was going to say disemboweling.

R: That’s true too.

S: It’s true too. If we have a belief that I’m socially awkward, let’s say that that’s the belief.

R: That’s an identity statement, too. It’s not just a belief, it’s a statement about the essence of who you are. I’m going to interrupt here.

S: Okay, good.

R: There’s a difference in saying I am socially awkward and saying that I have yet to master the skills of social interaction that our mind declaim. They’re both equally true in a sense but one is an identity statement. When I work with people, one of the first things I do is to take the limitation away from their identity and then bind it in time. Here is what I mean, if someone says, “I’m just not good at meeting women.” I would say, “Up until now, it was the case that the skills of meeting women were not something that you yet had command.” I’m binding it in time by saying ‘up until now’, and then I’m taking it away from it being a matter of their identity. This is precision in language and knowing how to make those interventions. The client will very quickly reveal to you where they’re turning their language. Either into a stumbling block or stepping stone, where the language is either freeing their world or freezing it.

S: So powerful. Once you have mastered language, not only can you influence people, including women, the opposite sex, but you can also reprogram yourself and use this as a self-help tool.

R: Yes. Very true, very powerful and, not but, it’s only one tool in the kit and often times people need more than that.

S: So what would be some of the other tools in the kit that you would recommend?

R: Mindful meditation.

S: I agree with that one for sure.

R: Personal ritual. For example, the idea that people can choose their responses and reactions and meaning they give to things, in theory, that’s true. But in fact, 90% of the time, it isn’t. Because that skill set takes a lot of training, it also takes ability to see when there’s a whole bundle of emotions keeping those beliefs stuck to you. If for example you have unconscious imagery in your mind of shame and you’re carrying around, for the lack of a better word, an energetic flow of shame, and then you’re carrying that into everything, you’re going to carry that activity of shame, that process of shame arising in yourself is going to arise energetically, the use of sloppy terms as well as in terms of linguistics, language. One of the tools I found to complete people’s healing, is to teach them mindful meditation practice. Then the watcher sees different emotional blends suddenly come up. Once they do come up, I do a little ritual where I say please take this shame and transmute it, refine it, purify it, filter it, distill it into a single drop of pure energy to be returned to me for my self-compassion, for my appreciation, gratitude for myself and others. I think of it as transmuting the spiritual poisons of life. I have to tell, you, I learned more about becoming fundamentally human and got a much better case of what it means to be free in the world from my Teacher Shinzen Young, my meditation teacher, than anything I ever studied in NLP. Because NLP is not designed to make you wiser and more compassionate. It may be a side effect of practicing NLP but it’s not designed to do that. My Teacher Shinzen is the single most brilliant human being I’ve ever met in my life and the single best teacher I’ve ever had in my life. He’s a geek, he’s a complete math geek, he’s an absolute 100% devoted math geek, math and science geek.

S: Very cool. Does he have books or CDs, DVDs or whatever?

R: Yes he does. Here I am plugging somebody else. I believe so deeply in his work. You might be able to get in touch with him to interview him. Ross Jeffries recommend. He thinks what I do is cool, that I’m teaching guys meditation to get laid is pretty cool.

S: It is very cool.

R: Shinzen has a book called The Science of Enlightenment but he also has an mp3 and audio series by that same title. You can get both on Amazon. He made meditation available to me, I was never able to meditate before and now we saw it as a woo woo sloppy thinking, new age boggle of dog dropping. But he made it very scientific, very organized, very structured and he made it available to me. I combine meditation with magick ritual, and also linguistic stuff and it all dog tails very nicely.

S: Very cool. That sounds really great. I’m going to include these resources in the show notes.

R: Please do.

S: They’ll link to the various places, Amazon, etc. From an NLP perspective, you’ve incorporated some language patterns even into this conversation that we’ve been having.

R: No.

S: Yeah. I think I’ve been picking up on some of it. Probably not all of it, I’m certainly certain that I hadn’t picked up all of it.

R: Listen, Stephan, you’re the only one who can stop and recognize for yourself just exactly what it is, you can now find yourself really tuning into my language only in a way that serves you best. As that’s taking place, I just want to say that I’m so thrilled and excited to be the person who’s sharing this kind of value not only with you but with all the listeners who might find themselves listening to this episode over and over and over again prior to claiming the free course that we’re going to talk about at the end of this podcast.

S: Yes, exactly.

R: Exactly.

S: Okay, cool. We are going to move into the seduction arts more. I’d love for our listeners to understand a little bit more about how they can hack the system so that they show up more powerfully, they can be more effective.

R: First, they have to incorporate some understandings. Really interesting you said hack the system. One of my inspirations when I was a 22 year old virgin, trying to figure all this out, I went to UCLA, it was a UCLA mathematics professor by the name of Thorp, I forgot his first name. He wrote a book called Beat the Dealer where he figured out the odds of blackjack and he did it so well that the casinos had to change the rules. The way he taught people, you’d actually get a 1% advantage over the house. That whole idea of beating the system has always been of great appeal to me. Let me give you some fundamentals. First and foremost, you have to recognize that there’s no such thing as love, there’s no such thing as attraction, there’s no such thing as desire. Meaning, they’re not things, like a chair, or a rock. They’re not even qualities within you. They are activities that arise inside of the neurology of the woman who you are seducing. I tell guys who say, “I’m not attractive to women,” I say, “Are you aware that the activity of attraction that takes place inside of a woman is all that matters? Don’t worry about whether you’re attractive, where do you put your focus on, what are the states of consciousness and the flows of feeling that you want in her body which she’s likely to give you the behaviors that you want.” First and foremost, think not in terms of behavior but in terms of states of consciousness. What state do you want that woman to be at? How about focus, fascination, connection, attraction, arousal, ready to go for it, right then, right there, right now. My outrageous claim is that you can create these states. Rather than going out on a date, I tell my students, dating is for women you’re already sleeping with. Rather than doing this ridiculous thing where you’re gambling; dating is a form of gambling, for most man. You’re rolling that dice and hoping it’ll turn up with the number six and nine. No, you can’t have a nine out of a dice. You understand what I’m talking about? How can you structure your language to create these states in women? Because I can’t sit next to Sarah on the airplane and say, “Sarah, in a moment, I’m going to drop you in a trance, command you to feel attracted, feel filled with arousal and feel that absolute desire to start making out with me.” I can’t say that directly. I have to embed it in our conversation. That’s first and foremost. Second thing is whatever you can get a woman to imagine for herself would be perceived by her as being her own thought, and therefore, she’s not going to resist it. You need to learn to capture and lead the imagination and emotions. The third thing I say is that you have to understand the primary fundamental difference between men and women when it comes to emotions. Here is my theory, my hypothesis and it’s this: Men and women are equally emotional. But we men tend to, and it’s only in tendency, we tend to have our emotions in separate compartments. When we’re angry, we’re angry. When we feel attracted, we feel attracted. When we feel sad, we feel sad. When we feel aroused, we feel aroused. Women have emotions about their emotions. Women can feel really turned on but she could feel hesitation about feeling turned on. She could feel curiosity about her hesitation about being turned on. She could feel excitement about her curiosity about her hesitation about being turned on and on and on. It’s not that women are crazy, it’s not that women are illogical, they’re simply running on a different operating system. We’re running, as a metaphor, Mac OS and they’re running Windows. We’re all looking for the same application programs, love, whatever it is, great sex, but we have different operating systems. A master seducer understands this and he does not let that woman cycling her own emotions, make him think somehow he’s failed. When in fact she’s actually just working him deeper into her mind. Does that make some sense?

S: Yeah, it does. With that distinction in mind that you have this additional complexity, these layers with women that you don’t have with men and you can, as I said before, hack the system and go after certain behaviors and evoke certain states from your targeted individual.

R: Look at this. This is only a map, it’s not true. Nothing I present is true with a capital T, it’s only a map. One of the models I give my students is there’s four levels or layers to a woman’s mind. The first one is to get it done with a check list. I’ve got to get my laundry done, gotta get that average frustrated chump nice guy to wash my car, etc. Second is the social approval level. What would my friends think of this guy? What would my parents think? What does Oprah Winfrey say I should do? What does modern feminism say I should do? Should I be a slut? Should I follow the rules? What do I do? There is her autopilot response level. Level number three where, “I only date surfers. Or I date wealthy men, etc.” Then number four is what I call the Sea of Fantasy, the Sea of Suggestibility. With Speed Seduction, we want to cut through the first three layers and get to layer number four. We do that using some fundamental tools from hypnosis called the embedded commands and embedded suggestions, and also by bringing up certain themes that are more likely to turn a woman on. Here’s the problem with geeks, geeks tend to talk about subjects that could be put on a chart, a graph, a curriculum vitae of perspectives. If your conversation is about anything like that, you’re going to go home all alone and have to take matters in hand.

S: I heard what you did there. Yes.

R: Yes. I love that. On the other hand, there are certain things that arouse woman. What is it like to be totally swept away? What is it like to feel that sexual tension just before you make out with someone who you’re really going to get into for the first time? I’ll give you an example about this. Let’s say you’re at a party or a social event. You’re talking to Debbie. Why can’t you go up to Debbie and say, “Debbie, I want you to feel that connection that you feel with the guy you’re really into. I want you to feel that sexual tension that lets you know that it’s really going to be on in maybe an hour.” Why can’t we directly walk up to Debbie and say that?

S: Because she’s got her critical faculty up and she’s not going to let that into her subconscious.

R: Probably not. But what if I said this? I said, “You know what I love to do at parties like this? I love to people watch. I don’t know if you’re people watching but I’d like to look for that moment when two people who are really, really going to be into each other for a long time, first recognize that’s what’s taking place. It’s like that moment of tension just before you realize something big is about to go down, Debbie.” And then I blow it off. I don’t want her to talk about it. I’ll say, “Then again, maybe it’s just pheromones. That’s why I haven’t changed this shirt in 10 days.” I want to blow it off with laughter and then change the subject. Now, why do I want to blow it off with laughter and change the subject? Why don’t I want her to consciously discuss it with me?

S: Because that will bring up the critical faculty.

R: I want to bury it down. The minute I distract, that whole chain of thinking is going to be buried in her unconscious mind and she’s going to be thinking about it every time we talk. Throughout the conversation, if I go, “Hey, I’ll be right back. I got to go chat with a friend of mine.” Then I come back to her, she’s going to have been rolling that in her head for the last 30 minutes. It’s a way of not only making suggestions, but creating a chain of suggestions. Sometimes, you do want a woman talking about the topic but this is an instance where you want to consciously suppress it. It’s a hypnotic technique. If you bring it up in the context of saying, “You know what I love to do in a place like this, I love to people watch.” That’s perfectly normal to say. What I don’t say is the typical trump guy like, “I like to look at what people are wearing, or blah, blah, blah.” You mean to say, “I like to watch for that moment when two people who are really going to be into each other at so many levels, first begin to recognize that’s taking place. It’s like that moment of tension just before you realize something really big is about to go down.” Did you hear the phonetic and the sexual ambiguity there? The sexual metaphor? Something really big is about to go down? And then you can make a covert gesture to your package.

S: Also when you’re talking about when there’re this connection between two people, there’s some sort of magic happening and you’re pointing to yourself and her at the same time. That also goes into her subconscious.

R: Here’s the other thing. It happens to be a truthful thing because sometimes that does happen at parties. People who are really going to be into each other, they meet for the first time at a party. On some unconscious level, they do know already the attraction is there before they consciously recognize it. I’m talking about a phenomena that actually happens, and the most important thing, it’s something that women think about a lot. Women think about this kind of thing, wouldn’t it be great if I met my ideal guy tonight at this party?

S: What would you say to a person who’s listening and thinking, wow this is really evil manipulation.

R: First of all, it’s very well designed manipulation. Thank you very much, ironically. I think it’s just elegant. Evil is a matter of intent. Elegance is a matter of how easy and powerful something is to execute.

S: Okay. What’s the intent here?

R: The intent here is to create attraction and arousal and desire. That’s not an experience women don’t want to experience. They all dream of it. It’s what they think about and talk about, not all the time to be sure, but very quite often, don’t they? Isn’t that a primary female fantasy, to meet a guy who’s so intriguing that she just can’t control herself, she’s going to go home with him that night and that this could be the beginning of something really big and powerfully important that’s going to blossom in their life. We all want that. I don’t think it’s evil, I think it’s just time saving, it’s cutting to the chase rather than making small talk or it’s eliminating the luck factor. I’m going to go to this party and I’m going to hope some woman is going to like me. Or eliminating the attraction by accident factor. I think men are far more likely to get in the mixture than to misbehave when they don’t have choice. When they accidentally attract a woman, when they get into real-hate-tionship by default. You probably been there yourself, where you had no method, no technique, no skill, no game, no chance, no choice, no selectivity, no variety, and when you met a woman, you were just so grateful to find someone who’s going to share her body with you and give you some love that you weren’t really happy, your eye was always wandering and looking around and hoping, can I do better? Can I do better? But the guys who are with a woman because they can choose to be elsewhere but they choose to be with her because after all their experiences, she measures up to who they know from experience they really want to be with. That’s the guy who’s more likely loyal. What a reframe.

S: It is a reframe, for sure. Of course that’s NLP technique. I think you’ve really hit on the head here, it really is about intent. If your intent is to sleep with as many women as possible, use them and then throw them away, that is a malicious and evil intent. That’s not what we’re talking about here, we’re talking about eliminating the social awkwardness and giving you a shot at the relationship of your dreams with somebody who you would’ve thought before was out of your league.

R: I think it’s evening the playing field. It’s giving guys what I would think of as a neuro linguistic push up bra and high heels and makeup. It’s evening the playing field. It’s also making it an even playing field when it comes to guys who are better looking, younger, have higher social status, more money, why is it fair that those guys should get their top pick of women and we should just lay back and accept that? We should take attractiveness as some fixed quantity of something and then dole out to us like porridge in an orphanage? “Oh please sir, can I have some more?” Why should we accept that passively? Is that fair? No, that’s not fair. That’s not fair at all. Why should we have to squeeze ourselves into a stereotype of what’s attractive to women. There’s no way we should have to do that, no way. It doesn’t mean you can’t be honorable about it. I just broke up with someone on Friday. She really wanted to take it to the next level. She said, I’m in love with you. And blah, blah, blah. The sex with this woman is explosively good. I could’ve had a weekend of amazing sex. Once a woman says she’s in love with you, then it gets crazy. I did the right thing, I thought about it and then I called her and explained it. I said, “I can’t do this. I loved you and you’re my friend. I can’t deceive you. I don’t feel the same way you do. I can’t be the man who provides you what it is that you’re looking for. I can’t do this.” I was honorable about it. But I’m able to be honorable about it because I adhere to one of my own teachings, which is being true to myself and walking my own path is more important to me than getting into your pants. It was a painful decision because she turned around and said, “I don’t even want to be friends with you.” That’s difficult because she’s one of my best friends. She became one of my best friends over the eight months we dated. But what I want to say is whether you’re honorable or dishonorable has nothing to do with the power of the tools at your disposal. It has to do with your choice as a human being. I would say it’s the guys who rely on being abusive on pushing down on woman’s pain points and insecurities, those are the bastards. Those are the ones who women need to watch out for, the bullies, the guys who bully women. I think if you want to get good with women, you have to be able to see where the woman is at, without having to go there for yourself. That requires that you look and you listen and you also maintain your leadership. Nice guys don’t know how to do that, they’re not only able to recognize where a woman’s at, they go there for themselves. They feel everything she’s feeling and they lose their emotional leadership. Jerks, a-holes, sting rollers, I call them, bulldozers, they don’t care what a woman’s emotion are. Temporarily, a woman will mistake that as being super confident, she’ll jump on it, but after a while, if she’s a woman of any quality, she’ll get tired of it.

S: Woman are going after the bad boys all the time.

R: By default. They’re doing it by default because they’re not being offered anything better.

S: Essentially, what we’re doing is we’re demystifying the process here of seduction for the guys who are normally clueless. For example, the concept of an IOI or indicative interest. I know that’s mystery and not you but, that concept was really valuable for me when I was just starting to date because then finally I knew if the person I was on a date with was into me at all. Otherwise I was just completely flying blind, I had no idea what to look for.

R: Okay. I’ll buy that.

S: What would be some of the key things that would be illuminating for our listeners who are trying to figure out like how do I know where I’m at with this person or…

R: One of the things as a hypnotist, man is that going to push some buttons… As a hypnotist, I look for responsive attentiveness. I look for all the signs that show me she’s totally and only focused on me, I’ll notice a narrowing of attention, the pupils will dilate, the facial muscles will relax, and I’ll see that she’s only looking at me. Someone can be talking right next to her and every signal she’s giving me, verbal and nonverbal, showing me she’s not even listening to them. I’ll look for responsive attentiveness. I look for pupil dilation. I look for her moving her body closer to mine. I’ll test her with certain touches. I’ll do something like the relaxed lean, I’ll lean into her a little bit. If her muscles are loose and relax, she leans back into me, there are certain signals like that. Then one of the things I’ll look for is the degree to which she participates. If she begins to talk and she begins to give me some secret little verbal things, like I hear her trance words. The words that she leans on that have special meaning for her. My last girlfriend who I just broke up with, her words were expansion, freedom, tethering, for some reason she had a button on those things. I know because I went to her website and stole it off that. I would talk to her, I said, “You know, it’s wonderful when we’re loving each other, we expand it in that freedom and I can feel that we’re tethering into something invisible.” These are all her own words. That will get her all cuchy juicy for quite some time. I look for those things. You don’t need a magnifying glass to look for these things.

S: Yeah. If you know what to look for, if you’ve gotten some training on it then yeah, it’s easy to spot the stuff. But otherwise, you’re just completely clueless. Like I was for two and a half years.

R: Yeah. One of the things that gets in the way is guys are so into their internal dialogue. Does she like me, does she like not like me, what do I do next. That they’re not even able to calibrate what’s going on with that woman in front of them. When you can teach guys to quiet their mind, that’s half the battle. We’re mammals, we’re primates, we have neuro neurons. We’re trained to pick up on what other people are feeling and their responses. We’ve been so particularly geeks. One of my definitions of a geek is someone who relies on internal dialogue as their main way of processing and moving through their world. That’s useful if you’re doing code and you’re doing ones and zeroes, but it’s not very useful in interacting and relating with other people, particularly with women. One of the things I do in my trainings as you know is to frustrate men’s tendency to try to figure it out all in their head. Instead, to quiet their mind and move towards behavior and activity and ways of paying attention. One of the things I think about NLP, I have a unique insight into it. I think a lot of NLP is a set of attention direction filters to tell you what to filter out and ignore and what to pay attention to with people. In a sense, Speed Seduction is that. It’s a set of attention direction filters, it tells me what to ignore in a woman’s communication and what to really hone in on and lock into and pay attention to.

S: Yeah. Because a lot of times you’ll get mixed signals and you won’t know what the heck is the thing to pay attention to. It happens to me all the time. I’m trying to understand what my wife is trying to convey to me verbally versus nonverbally, which one if she says, “No, no, that’s fine. You can go and do that thing.” and her body language is telling me no, that’s not okay.

R: What a nightmare is a grown adult to have to ask someone’s assent or permission to go do something. This is the pulsification of the American male. First they’re saying hey, just want you to know, I’m going to go do this. If you want to get in touch with me, feel free to call. Try that in a marriage and see what happens. I’ve never been married, never wanted to get married, never will get married, I’ve managed to dodge that bullet just I like I managed in God willing to stay out of a major car accident.

S: It’s a blessed thing, I think. That’s my experience of it, at least the second marriage. The first one came to a conclusion because it needed to. What a blessing I have with my wife, Orion.

R: That’s good. You found a unicorn.

S: Yes, I did. I found a unicorn. Once, you referred to a really powerful book on NLP that you recommended, and I ended up buying it, I read a lot of it. It was a wonderful book.

R: What was it?

S: Provocative Hypnosis.

R: That is my friend Jorgen Rasmussen who is from Norway. I think he’s one of the top five most brilliant minds in the field of hypnosis and NLP. Jorgen challenges all the assumptions of NLP, he has that mind that is trained to challenge any and all of assumptions. I love him for that. Tell me your experience with the book.

S: I remember reading one story where he was working with a client who had a fear of heights. Yet he had to work up in heights all the time. He was a telephone pole worker. Let’s talk about picking the worst job if you have a fear of heights. He convinced this guy that actually, you don’t have a fear of heights. The way that he convinced him was he had him come one session with his gear and they went to a nearby telephone pole and he had the guy rate himself 0-10 on anxiety as he was going up the pole and as he was coming back down. When he was 2ft up the pole going up, his anxiety level was a 10 but when he was at the same level, coming back down, it was a 0. That really stuck with me. It’s like wow, it really isn’t the fear of heights or whatever our personal challenges that we’re trying to get past, it’s a fear of the fear, I think.

R: I don’t remember exactly what his conclusion was from that. I think the conclusion was that the higher he went, the more he made vivid imagery of himself falling. But once he was closer to the ground, the fall would be no threat. There is something that was embedded in that, as soon as you get someone to measure something, you’re creating a partial disassociation from the experience itself.

S: Tell me more about that.

R: When he says measure your fear on a scale of 1-10, you can’t be fully in the state and also be reflecting on the state. You have to step out of it somewhat to do that measurement.

S: Right. You’re doing some meta-analysis.

R: Correct. A meta state. Absolutely right. You’ve done your homework.

S: I’ve studied a bit of NLP.

R: By the way, after you took my classes, do you actually go out and use the stuff with success?

S: Yeah, I did.

R: You were quite the man about town.

S: I certainly got more dates and opportunities than I had ever had before but I didn’t go crazy. I had a mission, I had an intent of meeting the right woman and not just having a lot.

R: Hey, I get it. Your personal, you’re a witness that my material actually works.

S: It does work, yeah.

R: There you go, folks. For those of you who were sitting on the fence, Mr. Spencer himself has endorsed me.

S: You’re kind of a big deal in this world of seduction. I remember before even meeting you or signing up for your course, your workshop, reading about you in The Game by Neil Strauss. One visual that comes to mind from that book with regards to you is in a diner, you’re talking to the waitress and you are seducing her using a sugar packet and anchoring to the sugar packet. Do you want to share a bit about anchoring and how?

R: I don’t really use it anymore. Basically, I had her talk about what it is she finds attractive in a man and every time she accessed that, I would tap on the sugar packet or shake it, I don’t remember. Then I started sliding it towards her and I said, “You know, when you’re with the right kind of man, those feelings will get stronger and stronger.” I slid it towards her even stronger. And then I took the sugar and poured it in my iced tea and drank it down.

S: That’s awesome. Anchoring and NLP is where you can associate a feeling state of something that’s a very powerful state or emotion with a feeling, physical sensation or an object, something that you can taste, see, hear and then it gets triggered when they’re exposed to that same anchor in the future.

R: The deeper understanding that I would say is that people have their own self anchors of impossibility. Often, your anchors of impossibility are the very environment that you live in. If you live in a certain environment, you’ve always felt miserable and you go back into that environment from the seminar room and the same triggers and cues are there, they’re going to overwhelm you. What I think you need to learn to do is change your environment, change around your furniture, paint the door red, whatever you need to do. You have new set of environmental triggers. This is why I say the challenge with NLP is a lot of it works in the seminar room in an atmosphere of collective joint atmosphere of wanting to change and believing in change. When you walk out of that into the real world, you don’t carry that with you. I think Tony Robbins’s secret is he creates so much optimism. People feed on his charisma, so they have a piece of him while they’re there but they don’t really have enough to actually go out and change. They have to keep coming back to the seminars.

S: Actually, he does empower you with what you described earlier, personal ritual. That helps you to stay on the path. Because otherwise, you fall back into the habit. Habit is the trigger, the stimulus and it’s the habit and it’s the reward. If you changed that stimulus, or the triggering event, let’s say that the trigger or the stimulus is sitting on the couch, and when you sit on the couch, the habit is to go grab the remote and mindlessly flip through the channels, and you want to break that habit. The reward is the dopamine from whatever variety that you’re getting of nonsense TV shows. If want to break that habit, I think, you start with the starting point, the trigger. Let’s say that you put the remote in a different room, you hide it in a bedroom somewhere. So then you put something else there in its place like a favorite book that you’re in the middle of reading. If you want to change anything in your life, I’d say one of the best, most powerful ways to do it is to start with your habit and rejig it, rewire that habit. Tony teaches us all these new habits. Incantations or affirmations, he calls them incantations, all these rituals for the morning, jumping on a little trampoline.

R: See, wait. I’d rather jump on a 19 year old Swedish blond but that’s me.

S: For getting energy in the morning and getting focused and so forth.

R: I get it.

S: It’s powerful, it works for me. It’s working for a lot of other people. Getting back to this idea of the art of seduction and learning new habits, what would be some habits, the personal rituals that you would recommend for people that would help them?

R: Sure. First and foremost, meditate. I do 15 minutes in the morning. Meditate, meditate, meditate, meditate. Second thing is learn yourself a hypnosis technique which I actually teach. You can go in and begin to program in and design the way you would like to be. Keep a journal. When I work with clients, I usually require them to keep a journal and I ask them these deep dive questions. If you woke up tomorrow, and all of your limiting patterns of believing, thinking, acting, feeling, moving through the world were gone, how would you know? Second question is how would that be a value in your life? How would that be important? And number three, why would it make a difference and how would it make a difference to the people around you? Write in that journal. Then the fourth one is doing incantations. I can give your listeners three simple ones. Here they are: Uncertainty is the ticket you buy to enjoy the ride of clarity and purpose, number one. Number two, today is a new day, building on yesterday and creating the foundations for tomorrow. Number three, inside of every woman, something wonderful is sleeping, longing for me to awaken it.

S: I will make sure that we include those three written out in the show notes for those listeners who are wanting to incorporate any or all into their incantations. Are these incantations something that you would say to yourself or that you would write down?

R: I will drop into a little trance state. When you’re in that trance state, repeat them, tell yourself. You can do it silently, mentally or you can do it out loud.

S: For our listeners who aren’t really familiar with what trance is and hypnosis, could you maybe just take a moment and define those?

R: There’s no such thing as hypnosis and everything is hypnosis.

S: Okay. That’s problem solved.

R: That’s problem solved.

S: What’s trance? What would be a trance state?

R: Trance is an altered state of consciousness. It was different from the one you were just in a minute ago. Trance is a state of focus and relaxation where the person is free to examine what used to be fixed patterns of thinking and feeling behavior and they can take on various different perspectives and look at their problems from different angles, and therefore find solutions. If you look at it on the neurological level, it’s a calming down of the neural nets and neural pathways that had been getting in people’s way so they can then begin to create new ones, new neural pathways and new neural connections.

S: They are more open to suggestion in the state of trance.

R: Both figuratively and literally in terms of the neural biology.

S: Yeah, awesome. We want to get in the state of trance to rewire our own belief system?

R: Yes. I’m sorry, I interrupt a lot. I would also say that trance is a naturally occurring phenomena anyway. I’m sure you’ve had the experience of suddenly finding yourself with your face in the refrigerator door and not even remembering any conscious decision to go walk over there, right? Or you watched a TV show and your mind wandered off and you came back and then, what was just going on here? You’ve driven down the highway, this is a classic almost trite example or worn out example, and you didn’t even realize, hey I just went 10 miles, where was my mind?

S: You said earlier that there are trance words that will trigger a trance state and you figured those out for your previous girlfriend what her words were and then you could incorporate them.

R: Yes, that’s true, but they also tend to be generalized transfers. Find yourself, discover yourself, allow yourself. What does it mean to find yourself doing something? Or find your own reasons? When you find your own reasons, it requires a deep search of the dive down into the unconscious level and begin to process on that level. What does it mean to find yourself doing something? Again, as we discussed, there’s no conscious volition, no conscious agency. What does it mean to allow yourself? It means that something’s just going to happen without you even trying. There’s no point in attempting to fight it. Yes, there are personal trance words and then there are generalized trance words and phrases that are more likely to integrate that. The more important thing I want to emphasize is the most important experiences we want, like fascination, connection, bonding, we’re not consciously aware of all the little elements that make those states up. We’re aware that the cake has been baked, we don’t know what the recipe is. For example, if a woman is feeling deeply attracted, she’s probably not really, really acutely focused in and aware of the fact that she feels a subtle flow of global energy across her body, she feels more intense localized sensations in her genitalia, her chest, she’s making sounds to herself on the inside of her mind. She’s not aware of those individual elements, they all belong together outside her conscious awareness, she just knows on some level she feels aroused and she wants to be with that guy. I am saying that all of these experiences are trance states. They are trance states in the sense that they’re taking place unconsciously. The disturbing thing is not that I’m saying that men are hypnotizing women, the more jarring and deeper understanding is that all of these or most all of these experiences that men and women want take place on the unconscious level anyway. That’s the really profoundly different understanding that’s much harder to accept but once you accept it, it opens up a new direction for you, a powerful new direction that you know you really want inside.

S: Yes.

R: You are the ambiguity.

S: I’m onto you.

R: As you feel your opening to that, and you put your finger on the source of that excitement, I’m not sure in what way it might blow your mind.

S: Every way.

R: In every way.

S: In NLP, they say that the more powerful frame wins.

R: No, that’s not what they say, with all due respect. They say the more flexible frame wins. They say in any system, the element that has the most requisite variety is going to be the element that controls.

S: Give me an example of that.

R: If I have a larger range of responses in my repertoire that you do, then I’m going to win. For example, if a woman says, “I have a boyfriend,” and I have them filtered and says, eeh. Her first response is not her final response and I don’t take it as written song, she’s expecting me to either give up and go away or argue with her about it. If I do a pattern interrupt, if I have a wider range of behaviors in my repertoire, and I say, “Boyfriends are like colds. You can catch one any minute, doesn’t mean you can’t shake them off when you really want to.” Suddenly I broke her pattern completely. She doesn’t know what to do. I have a broader range of responses. Another story I’ll give you, 15, 20 years, I don’t remember, hanging out with a student at this restaurant that had an outdoor lobby, a lounge, a patio if you will. Around 12:30AM, we were leaving and I saw a beautiful young lady waiting for a cab and I just said, “Oh there’s a lovely young lady, waiting for her cab.” It went in the wrong way. She’s very upset, rankled her. She said, “There’s a dirty old *bleep* trying to get his *bleep* on.” My student got very upset. He turned red in the face, he went to verbally assault her and I put my arm at him and said, “No. She can come from wherever she wants. We decide how we respond.” I look right at her and I said, “She’s someone’s sister, she’s someone’s daughter, she’s someone’s best friend, somewhere she’s deeply loved.” She burst into tears, threw her arms around me and said, “I’m so sorry. That was the sweetest thing I’ve ever heard. Guys have been gutting at my butt saying the rudest things, etc.” Again, I turned it around because I had the most requisite variety. I could have felt insulted or I could have slunk away quietly and feel ashamed. But I had more variety. With all due respect.

S: That’s a great distinction.

R: I’m sorry if I seemed to be, people are going to listen to this interview and throw their own conclusions about me. If I usefully interrupt, it’s not because I’m attempting to be rude, because I feel it’s necessary to convey the understanding that I think is really going on.

S: Tell me this, let’s say the default response for a woman is, “Oh, I’ve got a boyfriend.” And you gave one response. What would be five other potential responses of varying varieties so that our listeners could get a sense.

R: I’ll give them a couple more, I don’t have five. I think that’s not useful to have more than two or three.

S: Okay, but to having a range of response.

R: Here’s another one. I’ll give you another one. I could also say, “Hey, you don’t need to convince me someone else finds you attractive. That’s not how I make up my mind about you.”

S: Okay.

R: And then another I’ll say is, “Hey, I respect relationships. Congratulations! The one question my cousin always likes to ask is, is he filling a role or is he fulfilling needs that come from deep inside you because if it’s that first one, then maybe there’s an opportunity to discover something, you might really enjoy it more. Anyway, when you were a little kid, was there some candy that you really loved and hoarded and kept away from everybody else?” I changed the subject.

S: That’s good.

R: Here’s the pitch. If I get that and she really means it, I’ll say, “Look, I have to respect relationships. At some point if it turns out he’s not with you in the way you truly want him to be, then I’d like you to spend some time with me.” And I hand over my card. Now this plays into a woman’s natural tendency to always question a relationship. That’s what they almost always do. They talk to their girlfriends, I don’t know if Steve is really the guy I want to be with. I love him for this and that but I don’t know. She’s going to go home and think, you know, is he really someone who’s with me in a way I truly want him to be, hmm. Maybe I’ll give this Ross guy a call. It could happen three months later, six months later, who knows?

S: Essentially, if we go back to the intent, for you it’s not like I’m going to figure out a way to get her in bed regardless of where she is in her relationship with her boyfriend, if she actually has one.

R: Sure it is. Yes, that is my intention.

S: Seriously, is it?

R: It depends! Here is my true belief. Any woman who’s halfway attracted, any woman who’s not going to break a mirror without sneaking up on it, do you understand? Any woman who doesn’t have a thigh in one zip code and a thigh in another zip code, it’s going to be somebody. Think of your own relationships, not your current one but when you were dating, were they really the unique ideal thing that fully fulfilled you?

S: They weren’t.

R: No. Okay. She has a boyfriend. So what? Oftentimes, the boyfriend is not the entire conversation. He’s just a punctuation mark. He’s not the story, he’s a bookmark. The way I look at it is I’m offering her opportunities. She might take it, she might not. She might take it and regret it. I don’t know. But I’m opening the doorway for a possibility that otherwise if I just shut down at her first response, what’s that going to do? Just like if the woman says, “No, no. This is going too fast.” I’ll say, “You’re right. Let’s slow down. I only want to do what we both feel totally comfortable doing.” Now, I’ve shown respect for the actual emotional need. She doesn’t want to feel pressured but I’ve opened the doorway. What’s that mean to say I only want to do what we both feel totally comfortable doing? That opens the doorway for her to stop and think hmm, I wonder what he thinks I do feel comfortable doing. I make no promises but I’ve also use no pressure either. I make no promises but I never utilize pressure. That’s where you become a pig, if you pressure a woman, that’s when you’re not the kind of guy, I think, should learn my stuff, and doesn’t need to.    

S: Got it.

R: I’ve got to run here. My apologies.

S: Yes. Let’s share with our listeners your free gift so that folks can take the next step with you.

R: I have a video training on Confidence With Women. Actually it’s a video training on how to avoid the three confidence killing mistakes that will screw up your efforts with women. It’s easy to claim, it’s completely free, nine minute video training. You text the word RJGIFT and you text it to the number 44222. That’s the word RJGIFT to the number 44222.

S: Awesome. You want to share a website or URL for folks to go to to learn more about you as well?

R: Sure. It’s the same thing but you go to a URL, it’s

S: Awesome. Thank you so much, Ross. This was a lot of fun and I learned some interesting stuff. I’m sure our listeners did too.

R: It’s always a great thing to catch up with a happy, successful student who’s found love due to my teachings.

S: Yes, yes. You are definitely part of the winning formula for me to find my soulmate. Thank you for that.

R: I’m thrilled. That’s what I work for.

S: Awesome. Listeners, we’ll catch you on the next episode of The Optimized Geek. Be sure to check out the show notes at and we’ll catch you on the next episode. This is Stephen Spencer, signing off.