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S: If you care at all about money, you need this episode. You know the old adage “It’s not how much you make, it’s how much you keep”? Well now, you’re going to learn how to make your money work for you in ways you never thought possible. You’re going to learn how to build wealth FAST, even if you’re in debt, even if you’re an employee working for “the man.” You’re not going to learn this from a financial planner, because financial planners are not wealthy. Our guest today walks her talk. She’s built up an empire using the principles she’s about to share with you. She even has her own private jet. But what’s important is that she is a shrewd investor and wealth builder. You’re going to learn a ton from her. Her name? Loral Langemeier. She’s a best-selling author of five books, including the Millionaire Maker and Yes! Energy. She was in the film The Secret. She’s been on CNN, CNBC, The Street TV, Fox News, Fox Business, Dr. Phil and The View. Loral has a 3 to 5-year strategy to make millions for the average Joe or Jill. Welcome to episode 102. I’m your host Stephan Spencer. Now on with the show! Loral, it’s great to have you on the show!
L: It’s great to be here. Thank you.
S: I got so much value out of the seminars that I’ve attended of yours, and just recently the first big table. I’d love for us to go into some details on the wealth generating and wealth maintaining tips that you share in your seminars, and I’m thinking let’s start with the concept of money rules, what they are, and why you need them?
L: Most people don’t even, I would say, know about money in general. I mean, money is – in fact, the way I described it in my Millionaire Matrix is it’s an affinity because every day you have some interaction with it, and most people really, I think, learned it from their parents, maybe their friends, as they went through school. In general, I say most people don’t have money rules. They don’t identify it as such. They just copy who’s next to them, and what I see over and over and over is generational behavior – not even rules. Rules is actually when you sit down and you define “This is how I’m going to run my life according to money,” and unless you’re really taught – and you’ve seen it everywhere you go as well, Stephan – is most people don’t have them because they’ve never been challenged to get them. Money rules is from how you’re going to loan money, how you’re going to make money, how you’re going to keep money. Are you going to be incorporated? Are you going to have a trust? Are you going to have a will? Durable power of attorney? What’s your investment portfolio going to look like? It’s deciding very consciously what your rules are in your interaction to money.
S: If you don’t have them, then all hell breaks loose. It’s just kind of fast and loose, and who knows what kind of outcome you might get because you weren’t thinking ahead.
L: Well, 83% of the people that are living later years don’t have a plan. I would say even worse than all hell breaks loose is you’re hoping – you’re really walking around hoping to god this whole thing’s gonna work out. That leads me to – I’m gonna back up a little bit and say, “What are the money conversations?” There’s not a lot of conscious behavior around money. It’s just reactionary money and old, old, old conversations. Old conversations started 1933. Jekyll Island, banking system, financial system started. Literally, the entire system was designed for the rich to get richer, the poor to get poorer – just the way that it was designed and happened. People whined about it and cried about it, or actually they just bitched about it. They really don’t know anything much about it. That whole thing defined also the educational system as we now know it around the world. This wasn’t just US banking system, decision, and creation. This was a world banking level. The educational system was designed to create employees. I always say there’s an occupational conversation that was designed 1933, and then some people’s rules really set in. I call them the Warm June Cleaver days – 50s, 60s, 70s. There’s this whole conversation of “Don’t get into debt. Don’t have credit cards.” I mean, we’re in 2017. You can’t function without a credit card, and the credit systems have changed. I’ll come back to that in a second, but there’s two conversations. There’s the occupational one, and then there’s what I call the entrepreneur wealth-building one. They’re very different. They are very different behaviors, very different rules, very different interaction, and the occupational one, unfortunately, because it was set so rigidly – even 1933, they set what accredited standards are for being an accredited investor. 2017, we still have the same standards of what it takes to be a millionaire or what it takes to be accredited. The system itself has not been modified much. A couple of products have changed, but I think it’s the behavior and the choices back to money rules, where again the entrepreneurial wealth-building conversation – people get rich. And the other one – they keep jobs. They maximize their 401k. They live within their means. They hope it works out. It doesn’t, hence 83% don’t have a plan and walk around hoping to god something’s gonna happen. The worst part too, Stephan, that I see a lot of people – they have to go back to work in their 70s and 80s, because they didn’t take it seriously. The compounding power of money is extraordinary. If you get your money to compound every 5 or 6 years, millions is not hard to get.
S: If you play by the traditional rules of just working a job, getting a W-2 income, maxing out your 401k or your IRA, you’re not going to succeed with having a plentiful, bountiful retirement latter part of your life. Right? You’re going to end up in a world of hurt and just hoping that things work out without having built that certainty for you. Let’s talk more about the 401k, the IRAs, and what the problems are with that kind of traditional approach.
L: First of all, I think just the word “retirement” – you’ll hear me use it every once in awhile, as well, just because people know what it is, and so especially if they’re brand new to our conversation, they know what retirement means. But really, by definition, if you look it up the dictionary, it’s an agricultural word that means “to put cattle to pasture to die.” I always change it for all my Millionaire Maker books to my Yes! Energy books – as much as I write and document – is change the conversation. I don’t want people to retire because they’re not cows – they’re not going to pasture. I want them to have freedom day because people who are living the entrepreneur wealth-building conversation, they do something that they love to do, whether it’s raising capital. It’s what I see later in life. That’s what I’ll be doing. I’ll be raising capital, doing deals. I would say sharking before Shark Tank ever existed. I’ll be doing that till the day I walk off the planet. I love doing it. I’m great at it. I meet cool people doing it. I meet people in the right conversation. The problem with the 401k – if we think of two distinct conversations during our time together. There’s the occupational conversation, which is get a job, get a 401k. The problem with the 401k is that it is being matched and are invested by somebody that your employment group chose for you. You work for X, and then X gives you a 401k that sounds like a damn good benefit. The truth is if it’s self-managed inside of the company, which – I had one job in my life, and they would match. Then they would have that department that would actually employ those people, $50,000-60,000 people – your people to manage – I mean, even people that are executives are making hundreds of thousands. Here you have somebody making less with completely different consciousness telling you how to invest in your 10 choices in the 401k, which a lot of it’s backed into their own stock. Or if it’s sponsored by Fidelity, it’s into their stock or Franklin Templeton – whoever your 401k’s company sponsored by, therein lies your choices. Versus if you are an entrepreneur wealth builder, then you don’t make your money – the primary part of your money is made at a company level, in LLC, in limited partnership, in S Corp, C Corp, not as a W-2. W-2 money – and again, Stephan, I know you’re all over the world, so I’ll say payroll money. When you’re employed by somebody and you make money and then whatever government you’re in – it’s a worldwide principle – they can tax it as much as possible. I’m married to a Canadian. It’s amazing how much tax they take out. You know what’s so funny, Stephan, is you hear all these people – I got companies in Australia, in UK, in Ireland, so having been to a lot of socialized nations, where “healthcare is free.” No, it’s not. They just pay in an ungodly amount of taxes, so we might pay 30-40 in America. They pay 40-50. They’re paying for it. It’s just regulated. It all has to get paid for somehow, so don’t be blind and financially ignorant to think that that’s a better system because it’s actually – the healthcare itself – many, many, many of those people come to America for healthcare because we have a better quality of healthcare although it’s paid for. Regardless of that, we ignore healthcare. Back to payroll money – payroll is the worst kind of money. Here’s the easiest way to describe the difference between the occupational conversation and the entrepreneurial wealth-building conversation. Companies make money. Individuals get taxed. If you could become a company, which you can legally 18, all over the world, then you are a legal adult with a legal right to make money and then you get all these deductions, business legal deductions. Then you pay tax on what’s left. There’s a way better monetizing system. My son – you know this – he’ll be 18 in a few months. He’s gonna be an LLC for… He has businesses. He’s already had them. He wasn’t 18, so he wasn’t legally able to take the money to that company. I took it for him into those companies, so I’m a joint owner. If you’re serious about this – we play this very serious and our rules are very serious. Why make a lot of money as a sole proprietor or sole trader? You don’t get all the deductions that you’d get if you were actually a company, and we have awesome people on our team. You’ve met some of them, Stephan, where anyone listening can get a free consult with our tax team, our entity team. They’re the ones that are going to tell you what you should do, how you should do it. Then in America, there’s 73,000 pages of tax codes so you could become a company, get all these awesome legal deductions, and then pay tax, versus make a huge payroll salary ($100,000-200,000), get taxed to pieces, then live on what’s left. How you make money is one of the more critical beginning conversations we have, and some of the rules that you need as you’re listening for you and your family. Then eventually what we call generational wealth – how is it gonna pass on to the next generation?
S: Even if you are making W-2 money on payroll, working for “the man,” you can have your own entity, an LLC, a C Corp, S Corp, and that makes money maybe through your hobby or some side business, side hustle. Then you can claim all these deductions, such as part of your home as home office space, your car or one of your cars could be a company car, and the maintenance and so forth as paid for by the company. It’s all tax-deductible. Some of your meals out can be company meetings with you and your spouse because you’re both part of this side hustle company. So many opportunities to reduce your taxes if only you just thought outside the box of the occupational conversation.
L: I wanna add – I’ll give you some real specific examples. My companies – I have lots of companies. They’re the ones that make the money – millions of dollars, and then with my one company, I’m paid $48,000. I get a tiny little salary, and even though I’m married to a Canadian, we’re registered in Canada not the US. I’m a single mom with sole custody of two kids in America. $48,000 doesn’t get you very far when you’re there, but I don’t need the money. That’s what I need to let – you that are listening here – I don’t need the money because I take so many of the deductions living through what my companies do. I think the side hustle business for many of you, as long as – my goal is to show you how to make enough money. You don’t have to have a job. All that being said, there are many people – like we have a lot of firefighters. We have air force fighter pilots. We have naval officers. We have ex-intelligence, big big contractors who live overseas. We have doctors, chiropractors, lawyers – people who we need to have jobs, who are in positions where – a policeman. I have all sorts of people – are our clients. In those situations, having that side business or having their primary source of income – like I have several couples in the Chicago, Illinois area, where they’re making over a quarter-million dollars. That is a huge, huge salary to be taxed to pieces against. Even with the pension, the 401k, they still don’t get to take enough home, so we help them and show them all these different strategies, where they can loan against their pension, loan against their 401k. One of the businesses – one of the guys loves handyman business, so and his wife and several other firefighters that are now clients, have a business as a handyman business. Essentially it’s called Hubby for Hire. The women get the business. They have a website. They do all the marketing. Basically, it’s all those side jobs that you can’t get anybody to do. Because they have flexible schedules, they can do it on their days off. I have others, who repair and plug vehicles out of Canada. I helped set that one up because there’s the financial – the exchange differentiation is so great for Americans to bring vehicles down south out of Canada for now. That isn’t forever, but it’s for now – right now. Some of the firefighter women love network marketing, so they sell – there’s a wine network marketing company. There’s one that’s like a probiotic one. I’m less concerned about the thing they do. I’m more concerned about how they make money. People who do make high income, having the side business – like even the chiropractors – their business can make a lot of money. I still don’t think they should have to pay themselves all that huge salary, but all of the supplements that they sell, Stephan, could be a completely different company. That’s where I think people combine income too much. I have some chiropractors who are making $200,000-300,000. Why is it all in one company? Why don’t you pull the supplement part out? They also do events and live demonstrations, so take the supplements and that and put that online and call it a YouTube channel. Make it completely different revenue, than people who walk through your doors, in whatever state you’re in – it’s also a way that we teach you, what I call, the quality of money. If you go back to money rules, most people don’t even know that there’s a quality to the kind of money that they could make. There’s a gentleman in the last seminar that you were at, last week with us. He’s cashing out some really, really, big, big convenience store, gas station – big.
S: Yeah. He’s in my mastermind group.
L: He’s brilliant. 10/31 is a whole different quality of money, so when you 10/31 something, you move money from one project, say a piece of real estate, to another project – you can move it to gas and oil. I’ve had people move 10/31 money to buy a ranch and cattle and horses. I’ve had people move 10/31 money – when I say “I,” I feel like I’m the air traffic controller, and I have all these great teams of experts who help really give you the advice you need that are licensed to do it. I’m the educator with all the ideas, and I just know how this stuff works. He’ll save well into a million dollars just moving within company structures and then 10/31 money. There’s interest income. There’s capital gains income. There are so many kinds of money you can make. As we grow up – that’s not just an American problem. As we grow up in this society currently that we have, where there’s no money education, although your life is heavily dependent on you interacting with money, you’re the only one listening from where you are, or you have to take this serious. If you don’t, who’s leading it? Because most people are being led around by interesting folks. You let your lawyer do it, or you let your accountant do it. They may be good lawyers and accountants, but are they good business people for you? Just because you know how to – I always say accountants are the backend of – they’re really a historian of what you’ve done. They’re not the strategist in the front, that’s deciding how it’s going to get done. That’s more of a business development specialist. That’s more of a money coach. That’s more of somebody in the wealth building space saying “What you’re gonna do to make it?” An accountant’s job really – which I think is hysterical when people rely on them for financial decisions. Tax decisions – yes. Financial decisions – not necessarily, unless they’re really in the game. I just think that’s odd. But again, left to not a lot of education that’s out there, where do people go? Which is why I Live Out Loud the way that I have, as I want us to be this financial home for people to come to, where we have accountants and tax strategists and business lawyers (not just lawyers), estate lawyers – a great team of people that people can learn from and figure this stuff out.
S: I love what you said about “an accountant is a historian of what you’ve done. He or she is not a strategist for what you should do.” A great example of that is I had an agency in multiple countries. It was an LLC with an S Corp election, I think, but was definitely an LLC. We were getting acquired by a C Corporation. That was a big problem. That caused me an immense amount of money. If it was another LLC, no problem. If I had set up a C Corp instead of an LLC, no problem, but the tax ramifications were huge because of this disparity in the type of entity that each of the companies were.
L: I’m glad you brought that up. Because a lot of times, especially in the beginning – I always say if your goal is to quit your job and just become an entrepreneur, then get some good advice. An LLC’s pretty flexible, most of the time, not necessarily in California. You gotta get some good advice setting it up. But if it’s only just to make some side money – I want to use side hustle – sounds good. Just to make some extra money – Live Out Loud for me started because I wanted just to transition – I had no idea. If you were to tell me in 2000-2001, when I started this company from nothing in a spare bedroom, that it would become what it is and I’d have intellectual property all over the world and blah blah blah, I would have said, first of all, “That’s not my goal.” That’s what most of you – you set small goals – not that tangent. But I’ve left specifically only to me, and if I end up selling it, to your point, Stephan, it is really critical. If you’re setting something in motion and you want to exit very strategically – a sale is an enormous issue for many, many people. One of the things that we’re doing – you’ll love this because it’s kind of insurance you do as well. But there’s captives and there’s captive insurance. There’s all sorts of insurance products, and solo 401k products where you could roll profits of a big sale of a company. But again, this isn’t your average Joe Schmoe accountant on the street. These are high-level tax strategists who study the tax code. The know tax and law. I always say the people who have the best money rules are people who know and/or get advice in strategy, law, and tax. Strategy, law, and tax sometimes. Many times, they don’t get along. You could have a strategy to do, like you said, an international company and that all made sense. Legally it made sense, but the third leg of that stool has got to be looked at. Any time you make any move financially, you wanna look at strategy. You wanna look at the law. Then you wanna look at the tax implications, whether you sell it, whether you’re annual, fee – if you’re gonna have a contract to another company. As best you can have a duration of strategy – a year, two-year, three-year thinking – it’s critical. Then if you do decide that you’re well into a company – I know from knowing Dan Kennedy, he’s been a great mentor of mine, but watching how he sold his company several times. I sold companies several times. Then I coached a lot of people to sell. It takes about two years to fix the wrong entity. You actually have to have a cool-off (it’s one of the legal terms we use – you have to have a cool-off inside a new company. Then a lot of times, you have to do forensic accounting to move into the new entity, so it has to be seasoned. Anywhere between depending on the state and the country, 12 to 18 to 24 months of the new entity. If you were to decide it now, Stephan, it could have taken you potentially a year for sure, if not two years in the new C Corp to have sold it. It’s really important you get good counsel, and I’m not talking Joe Schmoe down the street. We’re talking people, who have a lot of – like my accountant – he does business with me. We do lots of deals together. My lawyers do deals with me. My bankers do deals with me. You say, “That’s odd. Aren’t they supposed to advise you? How can they advise if you’re an entrepreneur?” Can you imagine? Just think of Shark Tank. You think Cuban’s lawyers, accountants, and bankers do business with them? Absolutely. You say, “Well, I’m not big enough for some of those things.” I can promise you – you just have to start. You don’t kind of grow up into that kind of advice. You gotta get around it. I could mention many people in your class, like the one gentleman that I ended up being his investor because of the situation and the history. He needed access to that level of counsel. His partner died. I think you know who I’m talking about in Kansas. His elderly partner, who was just the money guy, died, and there was no paperwork. They had it done. There’s just no i’s dotted t’s crossed. A lot of you that are listening – I know you’re like that. You have a lot of interesting agreements, but when it comes down to it and someone dies or gets sick and the family steps in, and the widow just said, “You know, we made enough money. We’re fine, so good luck with yourself.” I mean, here’s this poor guy making hundreds and hundreds of thousands – they aren’t million – and got left with nothing. We’re helping him buy the company and figure it all out, but man, I think this is such a serious conversation because so many of you don’t, and not because you don’t think it’s critical. You’re just not aware that these are really critical, from taxation to contracts to who your lawyer is, who’s your accountant, who’s your alternative financial planner. Two other things, Stephan, that you mentioned that I do want to go back to is when you have a job, you have a 401k. When you have an entity, a corporate structure, you may have a solo 401k. Then that allows you to put $56,000 away tax-free, straight up from the beginning, so there’s such great tax advantage of being an entrepreneur, on your way to being a wealth builder and becoming a millionaire. A lot of what I call products or things that we would teach you to do and introduce you to, you don’t even know about because they’re not normally taught. If you walked into Schwab, Fidelity, TD Water – any of those places, and you said, “I just heard this podcast and this lady said you could do these things.” They would say, “No, we don’t do them.” Be very careful what they say. They say, “We don’t do that.” They don’t say, “You can’t do them.” They say, “Nope. That’s not available.” So be very careful. That doesn’t mean it’s not available to anybody. Self-directing IRAs – that’s a whole other conversation. Self-directing means you move it to a structure, where you actually can get checkbook control of your IRA. Now if you walk again into a traditional financial house, they say, “Well, you’d never be able to do that.” Well, not with them. There’s an entire world that exists for wealth builders that’s totally available to everyone. It’s what keeps me so passionate about this, but it’s just not taught. It’s not mainstream. It’s not in Forbes. It’s not in Inc. Magazine because they’re being sponsored by the big financial houses. They’re not being sponsored by your local real estate people, your local gas and oil franchise, laundromat. I mean, that’s the stuff we invest in. I have a restaurant in Ohio. I have a hair salon in Ohio. I bought a real estate in Ohio. I don’t know why Ohio. Oklahoma City and Texas. Live where you want. I live in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. Beautiful. Invest where it makes sense for you, based on your money rules. One of the gifts we could give folks is a whole list of money rules, then I built this – it’s called the Money Rule Contract. What it is it’s a section of money rules, and then it’s a contract where you out loud have a conversation. It’s just not you thinking, because I want you challenged. If it’s you and a significant other, you and somebody in the mastermind group – but start talking out loud about what you’re investing in, what are your goals with money, what are you wanting to do. Because other people have opinions that will influence and educate. That’s really why I call it Live Out Loud. I want you talking out loud, not thinking because then your thinking’s only within what you know, the constructs of what you know. There’s a lot that you don’t know in the vocabulary about money that’s totally available. You just gotta get interested.
S: Yeah. For sure. Just some little nuance could make you a whole ton of money or save you a whole ton of money, like for example, I had an LLC for after I sold my previous company in 2010. Got acquired by the C Corporation called Covario. I wanted to set up another company. I’m not going to work for “the man” ever, so I did my earnout for 6 months. Then I’m like, “I’m done. I’m outta here.” Got my golden handcuffs off. I started another LLC. I did not know the difference between a regular LLC and an LLC with an S Corp election, so I did not have an S Corp election for my LLC for the first five years. Then I got really good accountant who’s more of a strategist and was recommended by a high-performance person – high-wealth individual in my network, in the Tony Robbins world. This person, my new accountant is like, “You just cost yourself a lot of money, and you are way more open to getting audited because of the Schedule C that you file every year. You need to be an S Corp election of your LLC,” so we had that set-up, actually retroactively and refiled all tax returns and got some refunds. Then I also set up a C Corporation, which allows me to do a medical expense reimbursement plan, so I can get reimbursed for medical expenses, which I could never have done with my LLC. That’s only available with a C Corp, and again, that was a strategy conversation, not a bean-counting historical “well, this needs to go on this category” sort of conversation. Very, very powerful. Having those two different companies not be on the same tax year end – very critical. That’s something – all these little nuances. Loral, do you want to explain why they need to be different tax year ends?
L: Yes, and I also want them to use my building as their Nevada presence. You’ve been here out, it’s a center. It’s also a co-work space. It has a green room. I’m recording in our audio room, which is in the middle of the building because we’re right on Highway 50. Plus we have conference space, catering space – all of it. We use it as a co-work space, so our clients and others can use it, but not only use it, also we can be their Nevada address. Across the street from us is our post office. We have a bank. We’re in this really ideal location to be the Nevada Workspace, which is the name of another company, but to be the Nevada company. The reason for Nevada – it has the longest case law history than any other state. I know don’t how many’s taken a run for it by having cheaper fees, but they don’t have the case law. It’s critical no matter what you’re in, especially if you’re in an asset-heavy business. You’re doing creative real estate deals. You’re sharking, raising capital – those kind of things. Most of the people in our world would advise you to, say, at least have some company in Nevada. Here’s a cool strategy that a lot of people ask – kind of speak to the author-speaker space because that’s I think a lot of folks probably listening are in that as well, or at least having great websites following you, and you keep them clean – their SEO. Lot of folks – you have a core business and, say, you live in whatever state. You’re in California. You’re in New York. Your core operating business can be what your tax counsel advises. Typically that could be the S or the LLC in it. That’s called a flow through. It files taxes with you at the end of the year, so it’s the 12/31 year end. Other places in the world – in Canada you actually have more flexibility to choose your year end. In Australia, it’s always in 6/30. Whatever year that core year end in your country is – those vary around the world, but in America it’s 12/31 – then that’s your core operating company. I’ll actually use the chiropractor I was referring to because we just as a team really got him set up properly. He’s in California. People walk in and out of his clinic. He’s a California S Corp. People walk in and out, and that’s when he adjusts. He does his adjustments. He does all of that. Now, since then, he’s wrote a book. He has all sorts of different massage and stretching and self-adjusting techniques that he’s now teaching. He took that totally out and calls that his intellectual property. He’s putting up a YouTube channel, and he has supplements. So far, those two aren’t producing a lot. They’re getting close to six figures but not a lot. The counselors on our team suggested it be a Nevada C Corp. The Nevada C Corp – I think he picked 6/30 as his year end. Now he has a tax year end of 12/31 of the core business in California, and when that comes into higher profits and he needs to eliminate profits, he worked very closely with the tax strategist who helped put this together. He maybe buys supplements in advance. He used it back into his clinic because the supplements is a different company with a different tax year end. Any other intellectual property can be contracted back and forth. Basically, the way you think about it in simple terms, is you own both companies – like in my situation with Live Out Loud and the revenues, we have eight companies that control the revenues from intellectual property, one, to product manufacturing in another, to my own intellectual property speaking, as a different company. The events is a different company. You start spreading out revenue, and you start spreading out profits. You do manage your contracts with each other – marketing contracts. Again, this isn’t a typical mom-and-pop accountant who is putting this together. These are smart business lawyers that are working with your tax strategist. Some of you listening say, “Well, I’m not making enough money.” If you’re headed into six figures, clearly into seven – if you hit seven figures and you’re still in one entity, I would challenge you to have a sesh with our team because they will say you’ve got bad counsel. I agree. It’s called a multiple corporate strategy yearend that’s been used generationally by anyone who I know is wealthy, that’s making well into six, seven, eight, nine figures. It’s the only way to mitigate taxation. Then when you go into the next level, you actually have companies around the world, like I have Live Out Loud Australia, Live Out Loud South Africa. I have Live Out Loud UK. I have Live Out Loud Canada. Those will have different tax year-ends. If you’re hearing it and you go, “Oh my gosh, she’s filing tax every other month or so.” Yup. I’m also really, really keeping the money inside of these structure that my strategy team has set up. The money stays home, and you’re not overpaying taxes because you don’t have anything to contract against or to work with really. Yeah. It’s so exciting. I always see it as my new funny sayings because while everybody’s reading Shades of Grey, I’m reading tax and strategy books because I just love this conversation. I stay passionate about it, like I said, because it’s shocking to me how this traction – for the amount of people who say they want to make money, how little they know about it. I go to high-level mastermind groups, where people make seven to eight figures. I mean, you know where I’m going. They’re making a lot of money, and they’re not incorporated. It’s just shocking to me that they’re making that as a sole proprietor. It’s shocking to me. They’re parking their money into some bond or 401k or worse – I talked to somebody over the weekend, who’s an eight-figure earner, and they got like, “Yeah. I got million-something in cash.” I’m like, “Cash? If you even invested at 10% – a million bucks! It’s called 12 easy math. That’s $10,000 a month passive income. That’s what we’re talking about.” He’s like, “Really? I wouldn’t have any idea how to find those assets.” I said, “I know because your head’s so busy making money. You’re not learning about what to do with your money, or how you should not overpay all these taxes.” It’s crazy how people work so hard to work, but then don’t get their money to work.
S: Yeah. That’s so true. Making that money work for you between these different entities, so instead of paying a big tax bill because you were more successful than you thought you thought you would be, which is great. It’s a quality problem, but where are you going to put some of that money quickly before tax year ends. You could move it one of your other entities – have an intellectual property licensing fee, and have that C Corporation invoice your operating company. Let’s say it’s an LLC. Then because the tax years don’t align at the same year end, you can move the money and have that money in a separate entity and do other things with it, for the rest of that tax year. Pretty cool.
L: Super, super cool.
L: I always say I don’t know what should you do. The one thing I wanna reinforce – I don’t know if there’s a place I can give a gift or send something…
S: Yeah. I will put it in the show notes, so listeners, if you go to optimizedgeek.com, go to this episode, and this is episode 102 – that you go to optimizedgeek.com, episode 102 with Loral Langmeier, and you’ll see all the links and resources that we talked about in this episode recap and with links to the gifts and the opt-in stuff that Loral’s gonna give you.
L: One of the diagrams I’m going to give you is what I call our Millionaire Matrix. You’ll see it’s an infinity loop. Here’s how you become a millionaire. You make money. You keep money because you put it into the right corporate entity. You’re not making it personalized. You make it. You keep it. You invest it, and you do it with a team. That’s the simplest way I talk about the Millionaire Plan, but the biggest mistake that is made outside of the corporate one we just talked about is making your money in a structure, where you can have tax advantages. The one that is just as big is if you don’t have your sights on what you’re gonna invest in, you won’t. The biggest lie that goes on, or excuse or whatever – not knowing, is that I’m gonna make money, and then there’s gonna be this magical day that I’m gonna turn around and I’m gonna learn how to invest it. It doesn’t work. I have not seen it work. Usually what happens in between that decision or that day of making the money and putting money away is you find a new car. “I think I’ll use $10,000 of that $20,000.” In some cases, you might buy – a Lamborghini’s a hundred – hundred-something depending on your country. What happens is you in a very creeping style – I call it – kind of creeps into your money is all of a sudden, you have a big lifestyle and no assets. I am a 100% advocate of “as you make it, invest it.” For every $1000, allocate 10 or 20% not just in the pay-yourself-first. I don’t think that’s clear enough. I call it a wealth account. As you make money, allocate money, even if you don’t know what you’re doing with it specifically yet. I mean, put it into a different account. For now, put it in the money market so it makes some interest. As that money starts growing to $5000, $10,000, $20,000 – as you make that decision, do you want to buy real estate? The reason I’m a huge fan of gas and oil is an 85% depreciation schedule year 1 against your highest income, so if you’re making a 100 grand – that person I was talking to over the weekend, who got a million sitting in cash. Put a $100,000 in. You’ll get $85,000 back as a tax deduction year 1. He knew nothing about it because no one’s – they’re looking at “Let’s go buy Shell or Exxon or Chevron stock.” The same stock – because you have fees and taxes, you get it afterwards. When you buy what I call direct – you actually buy off Wall Street – you own the gas and oil well. You own a piece of real estate. You own the franchise. You don’t own the subway stock. You own the subway store. Some of the easy businesses to invest in – and I started this way – is I had a local laundromat, local car wash. Those are easy ones. Restaurants are not easy. Hair salons. Service-based businesses have a lot of moving parts. They’re not the easy ones to start with. Everyone can figure out real estate. The market’s going to correct. I would hate for you to be heavily in it. We have a robotic trader that will take you in and out of the market on a regular basis. What else? I have recycled glass. There’s tons of Off Wallstreet assets, where you get the tax benefit. Here’s what I know – when you make money and you’re going, what I call, shopping for assets – you have your eyes on buying into, say, a gas and oil well, and you need $10,000, 15,000, 20,000, you’re going to demand that this business makes money, instead of hoping it makes money. You’re gonna start very diligently putting money away, and then you’re gonna find another one saying, “Now, I want an apartment building. Now I want to be a lender.” What I find is when you start lining up what you want to invest in, not only – because I was in the C Corp I can use the word it, not only do you start manifesting it, you start looking for it. Not only are you distracted by your business – like right now, I call that – I use the word distraction because you’re so – so many people have 1000% focus on make money, make money, make money. They’re heads down. They’re running their business, and they don’t give any time or energy or education to what they should be investing in. They throw their money out to a financial planner, who over time, you’ll make way more money than they make, for the most part only about 2-3% make a lot. They put it on the stock market. I think that’s a scary damn place to be. I can promise you the sharks on the tank, and I know many of them do not put them – Cuban earns a lot of money through there, but he also knows what the hell he’s doing. He’s got a financial management company to do it. We make our money off Wallstreet. Corcoran made her money on real estate in New York. Kevin Harrington was a shark before. A dear friend of mine – we wrote a book together. He did his all off from TV and infomercials and just selling a hell of a lot of stuff, and then bought some really good Off Wallstreet assets. My point – long story about that, sorry – is you have to not just invest it, but target very specifically – that’s again back to the original question, “Money rules – what do you want to invest it in?”
L: What is it that you wanna put your money to work in? Start co-creating that. Make it. Invest it. Money pattern in your life. Then you start systematically doing it. You set up your banks. For every dollar that runs through here, a percent’s going into this account. They just automatically will transfer it, so you stop the behavior of overspending in your original operating account.
S: Yeah. I love your distinction. That is not just pay yourself first, which is David Bach’s mantra, and I love that. It’s great to pay yourself first. Almost nobody does that – taking money and putting it into a separate account, into a savings or whatever. That’s great. But you take it to a whole other level by saying, “This goes into a wealth account.” You’re not just paying yourself first, setting that money aside, and you don’t touch it. It just automatically – when your next payroll comes, your next whatever form of payment comes to you, it goes automatically – just like taxes get taken out, automatically the wealth account amount gets taken out. That’s genius, and it’s so powerful. That’s changed my financial life to start doing that, and I use Infinite Banking. I use life insurance as the way to do that. There’s a whole episode on the Optimized Geek podcast episode 32, where I interviewed Ray Poteet, who runs Living Wealth, and that’s the company I use for my Infinite Banking. I have insurance companies – it has to be a certain kind of insurance company, a mutual insurance company, not one that’s stockholder-owned and controlled, but the policyholders are the owners of the company. That’s the only kind where this works. It’s a little bit complicated, so you have to go to that episode. But do you want to share a bit more on some of the ways that you can have these wealth accounts that can then invest in property, invest in oil and gas, invest in owning carwashes. By the way, car wash is a great business to own. I know Keith Cunningham is big into owning car washes. He’s made a lot of money off of them. Great asset. You want to tell us a bit more about wealth accounts and how to use them?
L: Yeah. First of all, you got to fill them up. Actually, I learned that from Keith. Keith was a big strategist in my early, early days of learning all of this, I always call him – he’s the rare inaudible because he talks Kiyosaki, most of the stuff he knows too. My entity structure, my dual corporate structure – why I moved out of California to Nevada. I lived 13 years in Salcedo, California, Manhattan – great great places. Great places to live, but I can tell you the minute I learned it is the minute I bought a rental property in Nevada. That was my original address, and then when I moved up here so my kids could be on the ski team, then bought this commercial property – great own asset. This is the kind of the next goal of that chiropractor, using him as an example. If you’re gonna buy real estate, you might as well buy your own. Unless you’re in some situation, where leasing is better for location, buying your own commercial property – if you’re going to inhabit it, and you can get other people to rent it to actually pay for the mortgage is a great first piece of real estate, especially for those of you that are in that situation. If you’re online, and you want to stay more virtual, then do apartments, do commercial. There’s just so many ways to invest, and as you know, Stephan, we take people out on tours. I mean, this week we’re going to Ohio. We’re taking a whole busload of people around to different kinds of pieces of real estate. Now, you can do it differently. The way that I love seeing your wealth account filled up. First you set up the banking. I would say, why make more money until you start your banking right? You say, “Well, what do you mean about banking well?” Right now, if you’re banking is such that your money’s going into sole proprietor account, then you need to do what we talked about earlier. Get incorporated, so you could actually take legal deductions. Yes, you could take a little Schedule C out of that sole proprietor and sole trader, but it’s very, very limited compared to what you can do. This is everywhere in the world. I know we’re talking with a lot of American vernacular, but this is everywhere in the world – same principle, just a little bit different names and honestly, not as much of variety. There’s a lot of variety in America. Why? Because the politicians let us have it. Why? Because they do it too. Once you have your banking set up – you have your S Corp or your C Corp or your LLC in your C Corp in Nevada, and you’re gonna use my address. Come do your office visits here. Use the facility. Once you set up, and I legitimately have this set up since I was 21. It’s how long I’ve had this – not just a few years ago. Keith was the one who said, “Once it’s set up, your whole job is to fill up the bank accounts including an account in the money market account.” And I call that a wealth account. “Then start looking for assets.” Within knowing that advice, I got my business making money because I wanted to go buy a bunch of real estate, not a little bit – a lot. Then I bought a bunch of gas and oil wells. I would demand, and I actually use this language with a lot of my clients because some of you are so emotionally engaged in your business, you’re not demanding it makes the money and the profits that you have the money to invest. You put the money to work. If you could put – some of you, as you’re listening, maybe you’re gonna out $1000 a month away. Some of you, if you get the business making $15,000-20,000 (up and above), put all that money away. I have clients that started with me, making and living on $10,000-20,000. Now they’re making over a hundred thousand a month, and all the extra of it – can you imagine putting an extra $50,000 away? They can buy an apartment complex down here in a month. They can buy gas oil wells. They can buy a franchise. One of my clients in Chicago, not only bought a laundromat – one of the guys that kept going to the laundromat kept doing linen. He said, “What are you doing?” He said, “I have a contract to do towels for the local hotel.” He says, “But I don’t have enough money to get enough vans and enough washing machines.” He said, “What if I partnered with you on that business?” Now he’s 50-50 into a linen company. Once you start moving, the world will open up. Now, all of you’ve heard that, but I don’t think you’re moving. When I say moving, walk into some of the businesses. Here’s the thing about businesses. Somebody owns everything in your town. My question is “Why the hell aren’t you in a little more of it? Or some of it?” Walk in. The thing with businesses versus real estate is real estate is pretty traditional. They’ll put a big old sign out there that says, “For Sale.” You put a sign “For Sale” on a business, no one’s walking in the door or they’re expecting the clearance discount stuff. Businesses are typically done very, very privately. You kind of got to be in the know. I would say, you gotta be in the playing field. You gotta be at the broker level. Don’t be scared to use business brokers. I use business brokers all the time to go out and look for stuff that’s for sale. Yes, they make a fee, but they also are going to, on the other side, create huge profitability. Yes, they make money, but man, you gotta get to that street and know how to do it. As far as the wealth account, as you put money away. It’s in a money market in an initial part. The key I think, Stephan, you want me to share with them is don’t pay yourself that money. That wealth account should be a secondary bank account in your core operating account. For example, you have XYZ S-Corp, and it’s making a lot of money. You have an operating company that’s paying bills, taking the money in – take the money out. Then put a money market account inside that same entity because if you pay yourself that much money out to yourself, or even though the company – you make it a taxable event. If you have a lot of money inside your core operating company, this is all strategy and tax planning. I meet with my guy. Tell him. He’s got the license. He does all the spreadsheets, and we lay all that out. But you can actually become a bank. That’s what I know your company’s doing really well – is when you have enough money in your own company that you can lend another company that’s yours $50,000 to go buy an apartment or the down payment of an apartment or a piece of land or a franchise or whatever asset class you’re looking to buy. I have a cool offwallstreetassets.com. It shows you 12 assets because most people don’t know this. The only two assets that are prevalent in the world is stock trading and real estate. I tell everybody this. Right now, the way I buy real estate – because I don’t want to deal with tenants, and I just have a different agenda right now – I have plenty of that kind of stuff. I’m just being the bank. If somebody needs to close – a lot of Canadians can’t get mortgages here, so I have several pieces of property, where I’m the bank. They can’t get a mortgage, and I’m between the 12. I just got 16%. I’m a very expensive bank, not as great for that person, but if I’m the only way they can get their asset bought, then I’m the way they get their asset bought. If they are wise, they would find somebody to partner with and try to get a traditional mortgage 4, 5, 6%, depending what they can get and get me out of that. But in the meantime, I’m enjoying huge double-digit return. I have first deed of trust. They skip out on me. I foreclose on them. I take the property. If you’re listening to that and say, “Well, I don’t know how to do all this stuff.” Well then, I always say, “Lean in and learn.” If you’re listening going, “Huh? My gosh! This sounds scary.” I always say, “Fear around money is lack of knowledge.”
L: There’s nothing inherently fearful about money. You spend it all of the time. You’ll go get coffee or wine every night or every day or every morning. Or you go buy – you have your car then you buy gas. Or you buy a meal. Money is everywhere around you. What makes it fearful is I’m asking you to make a decision about it, and you don’t know how to make a decision. Fear around money is lack of knowledge, so lean in and learn is my theme. Lean in and learn about it.
S: I love it. I’ve learned a ton over just like the last 5, 6 years. I did not have Infinite Banking before then, for example. I was not paying myself first. I was just increasing my lifestyle, as I was making more and more money. I was very successful, but the money was coming and going because I was just living high on the hog. Now, I have six figures a year – multiple six figures a year going into my Infinite Banking, and then my Infinite Banking is used to loan – let’s say, I got to loan out at 12% to some friends with collateral. I did offer a loan to one of my daughters a year or two ago, and I did not have collateral on that. Lesson learned. She did pay me back eventually, but it was painful, so this goes back to your money rules. You have to have rules around how you’re gonna loan people money because everybody loans money eventually – to your friend or family member, whatever, and you don’t have rules. It’s just gonna end up in pain for everybody. Then my LLC takes loans out from my Infinite Banking instead of from Bank of America or US Bank or anything like that. This is just something I had no clue even existed. The ultra-rich uses this approach. They use certain kinds of life insurance policies, and then put all this money into the cash value. I had no clue that this even existed until four years ago, when I started and I caught wind of this from Tony Robbins platinum partner friend of mine, who’s like “You totally got to do this. Go to this workshop. This is super important.”
L: I wanna just re-emphasize – I think again, there’s a lot of broke insurance agents. You’re not going to Joe Schmoe, who doesn’t make any money and just needs your insurance commission. Believe me, insurance pays nice commissions. Insurance is not just a death benefit. The kind that Stephan and I talk about in what we do – you’re paying in for several years, like my policy. I don’t know what yours – there’s a variety of products in this category. But only really high – I should say, high-net worth people, but you’re not going to buy this off Susie Q insurance agent down the street. Most likely not. Some of mine – I’m paying it for 10, and then now I get a cash back. I’m getting cash back, and I get to be paid tax free, because it’s tax-free income – is what we’re creating, so it’s the cycle of paying it and then staging the times of your life. If you could set up a huge later life cashflow, just with insurance – I watch some of these people pour it all into rental real estate, and I own rental – I’ve done a thousand real estate transactions. You know what comes with that?
S: What’s that?
S: Yeah. They’re fun.
L: They’re fun. Then there’s interest rates. There’s inherent risks in a lot of things. The insurance company is a lot, but I think there’s so little later life planning really done for most people. Even if you’re heavily in real estate, like I have a lot of clients who have 30-40 properties, great cash flow. They have a cycle of watching them pay off over the next 10-15 years, and then their goal’s to live on 30, 40, 50 properties as a cash flow. They’ve learned that from Ron LeGrand or some other great real estate folks, but man, it’s not diversified. 2008 can happen again. Some of you like that asset class. I don’t want to go deal with tenants destroying my property, and I get a call from a management company saying, “It’s another $8000 to redo the drywall or re-asphalt the driveway and blah blah blah.” You gotta be really, really smart. If you’re not in this – always the question I ask, “If you’re not willing or engaging in learning this, who’s doing this for you? Leaving it to a hope and a prayer and a chance in the traditional financial house that’s just parking your money in bonds and mutual funds – good luck!” I would be scared to death if I was you listening to this. I know we’re running out of time, but the one thing that I wanna just point to just to scare the hell out of them really. A lot of people – and we both been through – a lot of people think divorce and overpaying taxes are the biggest problems. They’re not. Those are numbers 3, 4, and 5 down the line. The number 1 destroyer of wealth is unexpected health issues and illness. The guy from Kansas, I was telling you about, who I was so excited to have him become a client, and now be able to totally help him get his life back – because he didn’t know how to get his life back. Unexpected death of a 62-year-old, 63-year-old partner – whatever he was – he was not that old. They’re like, “Oh, you know. We’ll get around to it.” Number 2 is unplanned – because of the death part in that – unplanned inheritance. People receive inheritance, and if you do not have a plan, I guarantee you’ll treat it like a lottery, which is why only but 2% ever keep their lottery. It’s money you don’t know what to do with. You just spend it like a paycheck. Unplanned inheritance. Then the other side of it – and I get really rigorous with my clients who are higher net worth is why aren’t you leaving, when you’ve worked this hard to create this – why are leaving it to uneducated kids? Force them – demand that part of this generation of wealth building that you’re building is that they have to lean in and learn. They have to get educated. They have to understand the strategy. They need to use some subset of the team that helped create the wealth. Those are the biggest two that most people don’t realize – is “I’ll do it later. I’ll do it later. I’ll do it later.” Then an unplanned illness, which then is number 1 destruction of wealth, and number 2 is the unplanning of a death and the inheritance and the taxation. There’s a way to die and actually keep the money in the family, and not have it all go to probate. If any of you are listening have kids, you better have a trust, a revocable family living trust to avoid probate. That works in every state of Pennsylvania. We don’t teach this – and I appreciate it being on your podcast because I don’t talk about this stuff lightly. I think it’s critical for you and your life. If you’re serious about making money and doing it, do it right.
S: The trust thing – there are two kinds of trust: the revocable and irrevocable. I know this gets complicated, and we have to keep this short and sweet, but why do you need to have a trust that owns your house, your company, all your big assets? Let’s say you’re in your earlier part of your life. You’re not elderly yet. You’re not planning on dying anytime soon. What’s the urgency for setting up trust?
L: The trust is to avoid probate. It’s the highest priority of the trust. Also it again – the reason I like the trust as one of the first – I like insurance. I like the trust. I like the banking as a relook and a reset of your financial base. If you have children, if you don’t want to go through probate and let the state take the majority of your wealth – it has you sit down and have to directionalize your money. That’s a word I’ve made up recently – is you get to say, “My LLC is owned by the trust. My C Corp’s owned by the trust. All these companies are owned by the trust. When I pass…” First of all, before you pass, you can start allocating – over half of my assets are already moved to my children’s irrevocable trust. You can start directionalizing the money, which causes a different taxation. When Logan turns 18, it’s not just because he wants a company, he’s gonna have a company. I also – all the assets inside – offload that entire taxation to my son, who now has his own tax, but I’m making way more money. There’s a strategy to all this. This isn’t like a hope and a prayer that it might work out. I mean, you’re already paying tax during your lifetime, so why pay it at a probate level, when you don’t have to. What it does – I think that the family at that estate conversation that says, “What’s gonna happen when I pass? Who has another piece that we add in?” You and I had a conversation about it – is wills. What’s happening to your stuff? That’s kind of a “Who gets the cars and the jewelry and whatever stuff you have?” Then probably even more critical is your durable power of attorney – is if something happens to you, who gets to pull the plug? Who gets the voice? Boy, if you have a bunch of kids or a bunch of family members who have an opinion and would like you to endure forever on a ventilator, you better – this is all pieces that are paper-worked together with the trust. You have them all independently. I would suggest do the trust, have a will, durable power of attorney – have it all own everything you have, and then when you pass, you’ve already – it’s all directionally planned. The team who’s gonna take over – it’s all planned. There’s no issue. Operations – if you have an operating company – nothing stops. Like with this poor guy in Kansas, everything stopped. He wasn’t even on the paperwork, so when the guy died, all their flooring contracts – everything that they had, all the inventory – it legally wasn’t his according to the entity. I mean, his entire financial life for he and his family stopped. This is serious stuff. It’s not to scare the hell out of you. It kind of scares the hell out of you – is at some point, what year are you going to – like you said, Stephan. About four years ago, I heard you say – I started a lot of these at 21 because I got really curious. I was thinking at 17, had a Finance degree that was just interesting, and they wanted me to go get a job in an investing banking firm and finance. I go, “That’s not why I did this,” but that was interesting. You have to learn it. There’s no place you’re going to learn it. Even if you send your kid off to entrepreneurial college – Logan’s gonna be a senior, so we’re getting courted by all these colleges. He’s pursuing – I thought I’d look at the entrepreneurial training curriculum. Oh my god! It’s an upgrade of entrepreneurialism or of business administration. There isn’t a “How do you make money from nothing” course. There isn’t a “How do you get your invention into distribution” course. There isn’t a “How do you raise capital much” course. I don’t know. I’m not impressed with some of the curriculums out there. I think you learn it from wealthy people.
L: My last advice – I know that you pursue this too – is only take advice from the people who have the result, not the title, not the license, not because they’re backed by some big firm. If they’re backed by a big firm, they’re typically part of the big financial system. The kind of people I deal with – they have smaller firms. They’re very specialized in helping entrepreneurs and wealth builders. They deal with 6, 7, sometimes 8-figure earners. If somebody doesn’t have the result – it totally drives me crazy being in this seminar world. All these people saying, “I’m gonna teach you to make money,” and they’re not a millionaire – drives me crazy. Hang out with us. We’d love to hang out with us.
S: Yes. Now, how do we get our listeners to take an action? You have some gifts for them to help them on their way? Do you have some resources, websites for them to go visit? I do. My favorite – because I love answering questions – is askloral.com. Askloral.com is where you can ask any question, give your name, phone number, and email. Ask a question. I have a team that will follow up with you and move you around to get some resources. I also have – it’s called loralsgifts.com. I have huge discounted coupons to my Off Wallstreet events to how to pay – I have this whole kid’s section where I taught UCLA. I have a program called Never Pay Your Kid an Allowance. Even if you don’t have a kid, pass it on to somebody who does. You’ve got to change his conversation. Then I have a whole other section on money rules and putting more money in your pocket. It’s just a whole gift page, full of goodies for all of you, if you’ve enjoyed this conversation and if you’re ready to take action.
S: Awesome. That includes the money rule contract that you had referenced a little bit ago in the episode.
L: I appreciate being on.
S: Yeah. Also, listeners, of course, go to liveoutloud.com to learn all about Loral’s seminars and The Big Table, which is her mastermind program. It’s really a pretty amazing journey to go on, to learn all this stuff and to realize that you are needlessly paying the government money that you didn’t need to. That’s not about avoiding taxes. It’s about being smart. This is how you’re gonna take it to the next level and live like the wealthy, invest like the wealthy, and keep more of your money like the wealthy do. Thank you, Loral. This was fantastic. Thank you, listeners. Do go to optimizedgeek.com and get the show notes from this episode, checklist. There’s a ton of stuff that you’re gonna need to implement just from the conversation that we had in this episode. Look at the Nevada LLC or C Corp or whatever based on the fact that it’s got all these advantages, tax rules, and so forth including no state income tax. Look at using a self-directed or solo 401k or 10/31 money or having a money rule contract and setting up some money rules and how you create your wealth account. All this stuff. You need to take it and put it into action, so there’s a nice action checklist on the episode show notes page. You can download that as a PDF. Optimizedgeek.com. Any last word you wanna share?
L: As you were just going through the checklist, I do have a wealth checklist. I think that’s what you’re going to put in. That’s from our last week when you were here. We can add that, but also when you go to askloral.com, say, “I need to talk to somebody about insurance” or “I need to talk to somebody about taxes. I need to talk to somebody…” I don’t care what country you’re in. I have companies in seven different countries, so if we don’t have somebody, somebody will know somebody in those countries that has a similar – in this vernacular, in this conversation of higher level entrepreneur wealth-building. Any of these things that you’re unsure about – that’s why I have Ask Loral for. We have a lot of people going there on a regular basis because who you’re talking to – very interesting, not helpful. Let us be helpful. Thank you.
S: Thank you. Thank you, listeners. We’ll catch you on the next episode of the Optimized Geek. This is Stephan Spencer signing off.